Interview with Marcus Thompson, viola & viola d'amore

WILLIAM: Hi and welcome to the MusiShare Young Artist Program Series Viewpoint. Today, I have the honor and pleasure to talk with Professor Marcus Thompson, who I've known for quite a few years. Marcus has appeared as soloist, recitalist, and in chamber music series throughout America, Europe, and the Far East. He's been a soloist with the orchestras of Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, St. Louis,. Oh, it just keeps going on and on and on. He performed the West Coast premiere of the Harbison Viola Concerto with the LA Chamber Orchestra and the Chicago premiere with the Chicago Sinfonietta. I mean, he has done so much, Marcus. It's really remarkable. He currently lives in Boston, where he is a member of the viola faculty at the New England Conservatory of Music and violist. And artistic director of the Boston Chamber Music Society. Marcus is the founder of the MIT Chamber Music Society and of the private study program named for MIT alumnus, Cherry Emerson. And with that, hi, Marcus. How are you? How's it going?

MARCUS: Well, doing fine, thanks.

WILLIAM: Very cool. I'm curious. What was it that attracted you to the viola?

MARCUS: Well, I think I was a volunteer for the viola. I didn't know what a viola was. I don't think I'd ever really noticed. I played the violin exclusively up until the time, well, not counting the piano, up until the time I was in high school. And when I was in high school, I was in pre-college. And the High School of Music and Art, filling up every day of the week. And one day, you know, I was in a chamber orchestra, or an orchestra in one school and chamber orchestra in the other, and the teacher said, okay, we need volunteers to play the viola. You, you, you, you. I have to be at the end of someone's pointing. But come to think of it, I don't know what they noticed. You know, I have a very wide wingspan. I always had that and very large hands. So, you know, I was a natural suspect for that. And, you know, I came to find that I was more comfortable on it. And I continued to study the violin, never studied viola in high school. And I think at one point, my teacher in the Juilliard Pre-College, Louise Behrendt, said, I think you would do very well to study and continue on the viola.

WILLIAM: So, Louise Baron. She taught you violin, is that correct?

MARCUS: She taught me violin right through high school, yes. She wasn't my first teacher, but this was I guess three years of pre-college, about age 14.

WILLIAM: Cool, and you entered the Juilliard Prep at 14, is that correct?

MARCUS: Yes.

WILLIAM: Wow. What was that like? I mean, let's get a sort of a clue. Let's close in on the dates. What year was that?

MARCUS: It was 1960.

WILLIAM: 1960, wow. What was that like going to Juilliard Prep in 1960? It wasn't in the new school. It was in the old school, correct?

MARCUS: It was in the old school up near Columbia University. You know, I was, of course, going to a public high school at the same time. So I would go to public high school, which was a high school music and art from 8 or 9 o'clock in the morning until 3 or so in the afternoon. And then three days a week, I would take the bus for about 15 minutes from there over to Columbia University. And one of those days in which I really interacted with other people was on Saturday afternoon. In the Senior String Ensemble. And the Senior String Ensemble was filled with all kinds of luminaries that you would know, whose names you would know. And so that was my first encounter with Lidsong Perman and Sipperman, among others. And, you know, it was cool. It was cool to hear kids, I mean, they were two of dozens of people who played at a very, very high level. And many of whom did not continue on in music, they went into other fields. So it was just cool to hear people who sounded as good as the recordings I had at home. They were so self-assured at age 14. I mean, they were clearly developed artists. I mean, of course, there were things more of them sure they learned than polished. But they were very impressive people among many other very impressive people.

WILLIAM: Wow. With everything that was going on in the world at that point, what did it feel like being at Juilliard in the prep division?

MARCUS: I have a friend who refers to going to Juilliard and going to Hogwarts. I mean, you know, it was sort of closed out from everything else in the world. You go inside the walls and all there is is music and all there is is, uh, you know, this big talent and ambition. And, uh, in, of course, in, in, uh, pre-college it's parents. It's, you know, that kind of, right.

WILLIAM: Were your parents there with you during, during this journey or?

MARCUS: No, my parents, I don't think, ever went to Juilliard Creek College as a visitor. With other people, of course, their parents were there all the time trying to make sure that they got ahead.

WILLIAM: Exactly. And that's why they were left on the second floor.

MARCUS: My parents were not stage parents. They were in the background. And of course, as a matter of fact, on Saturdays, I went to church on Saturday morning. And the church I went to was located in central Harlem on 123rd Street, Lenox Avenue. And I walked from there in the afternoon up to Juilliard on 122nd Street and Claremont Avenue. And this was a walk of about, you know, I think I did it in about 30 minutes. And it meant walking west from the center of Manhattan up through Morningside Park, which is a very. Interesting part, and that borders on Columbia University, so then I had to cross the Columbia University campus, cross Broadway, and then I was at Juilliard, and I did that every week for three years, you know, during the school year.

WILLIAM: Wow, what was that walk like? I mean, were there people that were like looking at you going, who is this guy walking around with a viola coming through the park like this?

MARCUS: Violin, violin.

WILLIAM: Violin, forgive me.

MARCUS: Well, I'm sure they wondered, but you know, it's not as though people in Harlem. I didn't know what a violin was, but I'm pleased to say I was never accosted. Nobody ever questioned what I was doing, where I was going, or why. I mean, I was already dressed up for church and dressed up for school. I was great to the rehearsal.

WILLIAM: Wow. So you were saying that it was Louise Baron who said you should play the viola. What exactly led you in that journey towards Trampler?

MARCUS: Well, Trampler was the only teacher in Juilliard College, I think. I mean, I don't remember that Raphael Hilder Tuan.

WILLIAM: Was he living there at the time?

MARCUS: No. In 1963, no. I think she came after 1970, perhaps in 1970 or after. I left in 1970, so I arrived there in 1963 in the pre-college and then I stayed the rest of the time. And. So I think he was the only one, and I remember, you know, like everyone else, I auditioned for various different schools and programs, you know, as you do for college, and I sort of decided that, well, you know, I was sort of familiar with Juilliard, I was a little bit at home there, I knew some of the people. And moreover, Trampler and I were about the same height. And I figured, you know, it's good to have a teacher who's, you know, physical approach to the instrument or who's, you know, measurements and arms and hands and everything are like yours. I don't know if that makes any sense now. I mean, since teaching people different sizes and shapes, I don't know that it makes such a difference, or makes such a difference. But as a high school student, I thought that was an important factor to consider. Plus, I got a scholarship to Juilliard, and people knew me, and I knew them. And so, of course, it's different. I believe the college is different from every college. But it was familiar. It was the same building.

WILLIAM: Wow. Yeah, you weren't there when Julliard moved to the other building.

MARCUS: I was there.

WILLIAM: I'm sorry?

MARCUS: I was there.

WILLIAM: Oh, you were there.

MARCUS: I was there until 1970. And they moved in, I believe, in the fall of 1969.

WILLIAM: Wow. So if you were to put a finger on something that you were taught by Trampler, that you think really helped you in your growth towards the violist, the teacher that you are, what would that be?

MARCUS: Well, I've been asked that question before, and I'm thinking and I think I came up with something that's not the kind of answer you might expect. And I've learned this as a teacher, but we teach people certain methods and discipline and principles and things like that. But people learn, they may learn something that you're not even teaching, or they learn and absorb in a completely different way. And I thought, you know, from Trampler, I really got the sense that he was also a student, and studying with him meant that I was studying alongside him as he was studying. And it's hard to put that into more words than that, but there was really a sense that, you know, we were trying things at the same time, and here, try this, here, try that.

WILLIAM: Okay, so he would play for you.

MARCUS: He would play for me.

WILLIAM: And then you would.

MARCUS: Yes. And I'm sure if I had trouble with something, you know, he would play it and show me one thing or another and I would try to imitate it or I'd come up with a different solution to the whole thing. So it seemed very collegial. But, you know, it's something that is not really thought to be part of the teaching arsenal when you're teaching an undergraduate, trying to teach something else. So I really appreciate that from him. Of course, he was very much interested in your artistic expression. I mean, he was someone who was always dealing with the finished product. And so he wanted to hear you make music, he wanted to hear. Your expression. And of course, being someone who had played a lot of chamber music in the orchestra and had a background being raised and trained in Germany, he was very familiar with a certain kind of style of playing and the truth of it. It was very quick to pass that on, talking about things like... If you're playing a movement that has variations in it, then the variations have to be anchored in roughly the same tempo or things like that, cultural things that you learn down the line.

WILLIAM: So he was really someone whose approach was towards the music. It wasn't about, okay, let's deal with how you're going to put your finger here, or was it about that?

MARCUS: Yes, it was less about the technical mechanics. Except when he first did deal with that, and he got through things with me, etudes and scales, and we used to say, yeah, we had a big class, I don't know, 15, 20 people, but in those days, you know, we never had studio classes, so we never saw each other around the room or at the same time, but he used to tell me, he says, you know, you're the only one who practices scales. So, you know, that was pretty complimentary, but, you know, I probably could have done a few more scales. You know, we've had a, you know, a kind of competition around it as people have now.

WILLIAM: Well, it's heartwarming to know that the oldest have to have to practice scales too. I mean, that's a very important thing. Now, you have done a lot with the viola d'amore. Is it the viola d'amore or the viola d'amore?

MARCUS: Well, viola d'amore is the French version, the French way, and viola d'amore is the Italian. And even the Italians had a sense of humor because. For the origin of the word is d'amore, you know, viola of the moors. And on the face of the instrument, I wish I had known you were going to ask about that because I could show you. On the face of the instrument, instead of having an S hole or an F hole, it has a flaming sword. And the flaming sword is the Arabic symbol for Allah. Wow. It is the viola of the moors. And then it is also the viola of love, d'amore. And at the head of the instrument, there is a carving, instead of a scroll, of Cupid with a blindfold. We know it's Cupid because it has tiny rings on the back, and of course, love is blind.

WILLIAM: Is your viola d'amore near you?

MARCUS: Yes.

WILLIAM: Would you like to go and explain that again?

MARCUS: Sure. OK. Cool. Here we go.

WILLIAM: Very good. So we were talking about the viola d'amour. Is that like this?

MARCUS: Yes, viola d'amour, which is either the viola of love or the viola of the mures. And on the face of the instrument, as you can see, instead of the S or the F that we're used to having, this is a flaming sword, which is the symbol for Allah. The Arabic symbol for Allah. And if anything, the fact that this has, well, it has seven strings on top, and then underneath, you can see that there's a second row of strings that are supposed to be tuned to the notes above so that they vibrate sympathetically. And where the play on words comes in is viola d'amore, the viola of love. You can see that this is not a scroll. It is a blindfolded head. Let's see if I can get a little closer.

WILLIAM: Wow. Yeah.

MARCUS: And there are little wings on the back. So that's Cupid. And love is blind. So this instrument dates from. With early 1700s in Prague, and if anything it shows that the makers had a sense of humor, a sense of place, in that they incorporated these things into this instrument. Notice it's not of the violin family because it has this very thick ribs and a flat back, so it's more like a viol, it's more of a member of the viol family than the violin family. The neck is very thick, of course. And, you know, Vivaldi wrote eight concertos with us. And, you know, there's a lot of other music that, you know, that I play here and there. So, I know the question that I'm going to anticipate is, well, how did I get interested in it? Well, I don't know if you remember Walter Trapper played.

WILLIAM: Exactly. Well, you know Walter came to Nashville when I was a student there and there was a piece that was written by Larry, I forget his last name. It was called Walter.

MARCUS: Larry Austin.

WILLIAM: That's correct. And we, let's see, there was another piece for violin and computer things, and I played on the first part of the concert that he in fact did the second half playing Walter. And it was him in his living room in different parts of the house, and at one point he went into his bedroom and picked up his viola d'amore and started to play it, you know? So that's how I knew that Walter played, you know, the viola d'amore. Now, how did it happen that you hooked up with someone who was that passionate about it?

MARCUS: It's very hard to remember the origins. I mean, I knew that he played it, and I think I may have heard him play it in Aspen or something. And then there was also a time when he did a TV show,. And played a Vivaldi concerto, and he got together some students, and so I'm sitting in the group, you know, playing the viola part, and I was just fascinated by it. I don't know why, and I asked to try it and, you know, see what I could do, and lo and behold, there I was in the middle of it.

WILLIAM: Wow. So you've recorded for a viola d'amore? You've done.

MARCUS: A lot of? I think only one piece on the viola del mori that I can remember and that was a piece by Frank Marten called Sonata da Chiesa and it's viola d'amore and spring orchestra. It's a very very beautiful piece and you know many years ago I had a chance to make a recording at MIT as a matter of fact for the MIT symphony orchestra and so someone else determined the program. It was for a box record box, box or something. But the program they chose included that piece. And I said, oh, sure, why not?

WILLIAM: Wow. Very cool. OK. I'm curious, because when I was 19 years old, we met on the campus of George Peabody College in Nashville, Tennessee. Remember, I remember walking with you and I was so amazed because you weren't the first black string player I had ever seen because Sanford Allen, in fact, was the first because Sanford played in the Nashville Symphony and my school was brought to the Nashville auditorium, War Memorial Auditorium, to here and I saw this black guy playing violin in the orchestra. While I was thinking about this, by the way, it never occurred to me that we were, of course, not on the main floor, we were upstairs looking down. But when I walked with you that day, I looked at you I just I blurted out something that was just you know it seemed normal to me it was part of what which was you know what my dream is I said to you and I said my dream is to have a black string quartet.

MARCUS: I remember that now that you say that.

WILLIAM: And you looked at me and you said, do you know what my dream is? My dream is to have a quartet. I was totally, I had many thoughts that went through my mind. One of them was like, the other was like, huh, that's really interesting. You had a profound effect on me through what you said, because it led me to shed certain things and understand that what I was about to venture into was about music. Should always be about music. Should not allow the other things to come into it? I don't know. You must have been aware that you were saying what you were saying. What do you think about that after having... I don't think I've ever told you that before.

MARCUS: You know, now that you say that, I remember saying it, and I remember that that's very much a part of the way I think now. And so I don't know how far back it went. But just as you said, there are always other things that surround the centrality of making music. And those things will be there. But you have to decide, you know, if making music on the highest level is the most important thing to you, then that's what you have to go for. So it's a matter of priority. And yes, there weren't that many. As a matter of fact, if you were thinking of doing that for the sake of being among the first or whatnot, someone had already created a really good black string quartet in the early 1900s in Harlem. I don't know if you're familiar with Eileen Southern's book, The Music of Black Americans. And I got to meet her when I when first came to Cambridge, Massachusetts about 50 years ago. She was on the faculty of Harvard. And this book is a sort of a Bible for those of us who didn't know the history of black music and black Americans in music. And in the centerfold, there are a number of photos, historic photos. And among them is a picture of a string quartet. Of people. It's not just that it was early in the century, but that I actually have known and met two of those people, aged members of the musical community. And also, so I mean, that's just as a matter of understanding that this quartet, of course, was no longer playing, but there were people who were still in the musical community of New York playing in the studios and other things like that, and I got to meet them. But I also knew by the time we spoke how difficult it is to form a quartet. Any quartet. And so adding. Being a black quartet on top of that was just, it's going to be a little harder, harder than in my home.

WILLIAM: So, okay, from that point of view, when you talk about being at Juilliard in, I think you said 1960? From 1960 to 1970. What was it like as a, I mean, as a black violist or a black person, what was it like being in that school at that time?

MARCUS: Well, you know, my answer is sort of like my answer about, you know, a string quartet. I went there, you know, I came to music as a professional out of a love for the music. And. I suppose I noticed that there weren't many other black people at Juilliard, but I had a lot of friends who were black at Juilliard and not all of them were students. Some of them were staff members. Some of them were very important and great singers and famous in other ways these days. But I was there to learn music and I already had a cohort of friends who were of all kinds,and I think if there's anything that distinguishes my life at Juilliard from that of other students my age at the same time, it was that I was among the few people at Juilliard who actually lived at home. I lived in a black neighborhood. I went to a black church. I walked out of a black neighborhood across all kinds of lines of the city through Columbia University to get to Juilliard. So I wasn't, I didn't feel as though, as though I was alone or, you know, they're places I know that I don't take my church family or my love family or my, or my musical family or my... You see what I'm getting at?

WILLIAM: Yeah, I do. I do. I really, really do because I'm sorry. No, when I grew up in Nashville, the part of Nashville that I grew up was all black, you know, just like Harlem or whatever, but there was a train track and then it suddenly became all white and I remember. The distinction of where I lived to where I was going. And what I'm hearing you say is, you just sort of walk through that. Is that correct?

MARCUS: That's correct. And that's only the very smallest piece of it. I mean, what you're emphasizing is that these were big extremes. They were even more extreme than yours, if you think that Nashville was more extreme. In the 1960s, New York was as extreme as any place. And if you remember that not only was the civil rights struggle going on, but the struggle against the war in Vietnam. So that people were in the streets protesting and doing things from more than one cause. And sometimes these got mixed up. And I think much of my day, most of my days in town, I lived in the Bronx, by the way, the South Bronx, so I had to come into the city. If I came into the city for church, I got off the subway in the middle of central Harlem, which usually had just been on fire or is covered with broken glass and with people by, patrolled by police who are standing in riot gear in clusters of six on every corner. That's Harlem of the 60s. I would walk through central Harlem, the Columbia University, and Columbia University, the students were occupying the buildings in the late 90s. And the police were standing on the corners in riot gear in sixes and flames were coming out of this and that. But I'm going to play music. It wasn't always that way. I mean, you know, these things were, I think, were compressed into periods and then it would go back to normal, so it would go from one extreme to the other. But I think music was a constant and it wasn't until 1970s, as a matter of fact, on my birthday, that school was shut down. And that was in May of 1970 when Kent State students were shot on campus, and I understand that in other shootings in other campuses around the country by, in this case it was National Guardsmen, untrained young National Guardsmen who fired on a crowd of students and killed four of them. And at that point, it was as incendiary as these protests after George Floyd. It was as pervasive. And so there was no institution that could remain open. So the schools were closed just as they're closed now. And I, well, of course I was at the end of my junior year, it was May 4th when that happened, May 5th, schools were closed. And I wondered. Am I going to graduate? Am I going to get my degree? I mean, I finished all the requirements for the DMA. And so, you know, I was just sitting around at home waiting and I think they announced, okay, we're going to have commencement. So we all went to Juilliard in Lincoln Center for the commencement ceremony. But that was my last time. You know, that was the last bit of my presence at Juilliard.

WILLIAM: Well, okay. So, if you were to talk to students today in the midst of all that's happening, from your experience with everything that was happening while you were going to Juilliard and coming from the Bronx, is there something that you could say to them that would help, perhaps, or give them into insight, at least into how you dealt with that?

MARCUS: I think everybody's got to deal with it right now. You've got to feel a sense of purpose, something that you want to do. I think everybody, all the people I know are deeply affected and saddened by the way the country is now. Deeply saddened by the way the country was then. And I, you know, there has to be a sense that something endures. And if that's music, if it's your love for music, your desire, sometimes, you know, people have been through worse times. I hate to say it, you know, I can't imagine what it was like to live through the depression or to live through, you know, real war. To live through World War in Europe. And I think having a perspective of the tragedies that people have lived through and trying for the human spirit, you have to reach for that and just hold on. And you may not make it, but you can't stop hoping and reaching and trying and working on the thing that leads the most.

WILLIAM: Well, your love for what means the most to you, the music as it is, shows through everything that you've just said. And as when I was young, I'm still touched by the enormity of experiences that you had, by what, how you've managed to do what you do through all of those experiences, you know, because of all of those experiences. It's really truly an honor to speak with you and I am so happy to be able to share that love that I see in you about the music that you play or the love that you have for the music that you play. It's really, really special and I thank you for allowing us to hear that. So with that, have a great day Marcus Thompson.

MARCUS: Thank you. Great to see you.

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